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The tracking change to null does nothing for the Tempest

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 20:38:00 - [1] Tempest and Megathron I just wanted to show you a graph of how the range of null is making it impossible for the Tempest to outdamage it. This graph is with 100 m/s transversal velocity to simulate the Tempest trying to dodge the fire of the Megathron. And its with the latest ammo changes, where null is nerfed with 50% less tracking. Does it matter? No. The graph is originally from a post in General Discussion where Bazman suggests making null more like antimatter range, but with higher tracking, which I feel would be perfectly fine. High damage up close, poor damage at range. Thats what blasters should be. You see in the graph how antimatter and null differ. Im not even showing the extra drone damage from the Megathron in this graph. But it doesnt even need those to outdamage the Tempest. So... 25 km range with blasters, eh? Yeah, thats "balanced". Im going to keep posting these things until something is done about this situation. Its so incredibly unbalanced. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:02:00 - [2] Originally by: Mallick Maybe you should compare Mega Neutron Blasters with 800mm Repeating Artillery Cannon? Guess you dont know how little different it actually makes. Well, check the graph again, I just added it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:16:00 - [3] Originally by: starship enginer how about you do me a graph with the tempest with dual 90% webbers vs a cepter and the megathron with 90% webber vs a cepter how about you take into account that both the tempest and the megathron will have a webber if not two, and make the transverse 90% less at 0m to 10km how about you TELL ME WHY you think the tempest should do more damage than the megathron at any range? for i can list many reaspns why it should not i await yee answers What does the webbed ceptors have to do with the range of null? And yes, I can show you a damage graph of both ships standing still webbed... what does that have to do with the range of null again? Besides, Tempests getting webbed at that range DIES. Dont you know that? Thats the whole point of it trying to stay away from the Megathron blasters. And for your last question: I DONT feel the Tempest should do more damage than the Megathron at any range. I feel it should do more damage than the Megathron at maybe 13-20 km away, because thats where autocannons should shine, and blasters go down in damage, because they are close range guns with higher damage. Is it really that strange? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:31:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/11/2006 21:31:54 Originally by: Mallick Ok, you changed your graph. Mind telling us what you have included? Skills? Ship bonus? The point of the graph was to show the incredibly long range of null ammo, and see if it wouldnt be better if the range of it was more like antimatter, but then boost its damage instead. Making blasters incredibly high dps weapons up close, without covering the entire warp disruptor range. I just added 800 autocannons to the graph when i edited it. Makes little difference. The graph includes max skills for tempest and megathron, and ship bonuses, yes. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Goumindong Can you do another one at 200m/s transversal? Done. Check original post. Makes little difference. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 21:43:00 - [6] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/11/2006 21:45:14 Originally by: Kye Kenshin You know you should make a graph about how a torp Raven with tank out damages an AC Tempest alot further then a neuthron loaded with null with no tank. You do have a tank with neutrons on megathrons. Repper, 1600 mm plate, hardeners. For example this (needs a 3% or 5% cpu implant, but they are cheap): 7 x Neutron II, Named MWD, med injecter with 800 sized charges, web, scram, Large repper II, 1600mm plate, 2 x EANM II, named DC, 2 x damage mods And Ive made graphs about the Raven before, showing how unbalanced it is that a ship can put out that kind of damage with that kind of tank. But I dont want to turn the thread into a general flame fest. Lets focus on turret ammo here. Missiles are different. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:19:00 - [7] Originally by: Siakel Any chance I could get a link to the tool you use to make these graphs? Tried searching around, but no luck.. Here you go. It has the latest ammo changes and ships, with one exception: The myrmidon now has 6 turrets instead of 5. So add that under the Ships tab when you have downloaded it. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:38:00 - [8] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 05/11/2006 22:39:00 Originally by: Mallick Edited by: Mallick on 05/11/2006 22:35:55 Somehow I did not get the same result as you did? Chart Yeah, you are showing it per gun... Megathron has 7 guns and Tempest has 6, so the dps numbers you get are per gun, not per ship. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 09:39:00 - [9] I added the effect of a tracking disruptor. I would say its a essential module on a Tempest fighting a Megathron... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 10:08:00 - [10] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 10:11:49 I think most Tempest pilots feel 2 heavy nos is better than siege launchers in pvp, not only because it helps vs virtually all ships you encounter, but specifically in this situation when you are fighting a cap hungry megathron. But yeah, if I add those, the dps for Tempest goes up even more. While this thread started out to show the range of null being unfair, I now think the Tempest is actually the better ship if it can manage to keep its range and use a tracking disruptor. And specially in Kali with the boosted hitpoints. That spells even more problems for cap hungry ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 11:42:00 - [11] Originally by: Mila Prestoc I wish everything was as simple as people make out on the forums.... Its impossible to take all things into account though. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:29:00 - [12] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:30:34 Originally by: Imhotep Khem Also, note that since autocannons track worse, the Tempest pilot should seek to reduce transversal. Thats not what the graphs show (ive added some more, check the original post). You will not outdamage a megathron at all if you are not using a tracking disruptor. And if you are, and having 0 m/s transversal velocity, you need to be at about 17,5 km away from it to outdamage it. If you increase transversal to 100 m/s, you will outdamage it at about 11 km and onward. So it seems to me that keeping the transversal UP helps the Tempest. Right? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 12:34:00 - [13] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 13:46:24 Mila, your resists come out way higher than the ones I get? When I add 3 EANM II + 15% DC, I end up with going from 60/10/35/35 for the mega, to about 80/55/67/67? And judging from Ithildin, he gets the same...except my tank uses 4 slots. 3 EANM II + DC. Slightly confusing. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 13:58:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:15:29 Originally by: Mahu Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 12:36:12 Originally by: Mahu Put some average tank into that eqasion and take a look. I think most tanked battleships have pretty equal resists to everything, but if you give me the typical resist numbers of a megathron and a tempest, i can plug them in. I made one oversight. I am very interested in Temp verus Mega fights as I am a tempest a/c pilot. My figures are based on the following setup. 6 x dual 425mm II 2 x Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100mn MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 2 x webs 1 x 20km scram 2 x LAR II 2 EANM II 1 x Internal DC 1 x Gyro II Verus Mega 7 x Electrons II (my oversight as you were comparing Neuts) 1 Heavy Diminishing Nos 1 x 100 MWD II 1 x Heavy Electrochemical Cap Booster 1 x web 1 x Scram 2 x LAR II 3 x EANM (think u need to use shadow ones) 1 x DC 1 x Damage Mod II These are both fairly standard PVP setups. I put those setups in and here are the graphs: Without tracking disruptor With tracking disruptor I put in the 800 autocannons too, and as you can see, you really need those to outdamage the megathron, and that is when you are using a tracking disruptor as well. This is with 100 m/s transversal. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:16:46 Originally by: Ithildin Um, Jim, if you've got a neutron Megathron in the graph, you've got to have an 800mm Tempest - if those are the ships you compare. Add the 800mm 'pest or remove the neutron 'thron. Ive added them to the graphs above now. Thanks. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 06/11/2006 14:23:55 Originally by: Ithildin Doesn't make too much difference, I know (and noticed), but one of the main things to note is how the Tempest typically has room for better equipment. While it can't really compete with the Megathron in terms of damage, you can fit that tracking disruptor and those energy vampires that the Megathron just can't. Problem is, those modules seldom show up in dps graphs... I agree. The Tempest with a tracking disruptor doesnt really feel subpar to me anymore after doing this thread, and creating all these graphs. But it does need that tracking disruptor so it can avoid more of the damage, and use its speed to stay away from getting webbed. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Mega with 3x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 83/61/72/72. Pest with 2x EANM T2 and max comp with +15% DC I get 85/55/62/67 Corrected Stats Not much difference from what I can tell. Yeah. You can check out my graphs with the tracking disruptor if you want. It really makes a difference when fighting a megathron. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:34:00 - [19] Dixon, no need to get all angry. Ithildin asked me to include 800's in the graph, so I did. Thats all you would need to do too. Just ask. And as you can see, the Tempest does pretty good when using a tracking disruptor. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:36:00 - [20] Originally by: Mila Prestoc Indeed, but its just down to that tracking disruptor that gives the Pest a chance. It is trying to correct the problem of Null's range. Thats what I set out to do as well with this thread... and I still think its range is silly. And until they change it, I think that tracking disruptor is the way to survive against megathrons. At least it improves the odds. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.11.06 14:39:00 - [21] Originally by: Dixon Originally by: Jim McGregor Dixon, no need to get all angry. Ithildin asked me to include 800's in the graph, so I did. Thats all you would need to do too. Just ask. And as you can see, the Tempest does pretty good when using a tracking disruptor. I'm not angry, I'm just caldari. Not sure if thats better or worse... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate

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